Tarot, Part 2: The Professional Tool That Gets You Out of Your Head

Big thoughts, quick talk, flip facts, TikTok, level up your mind, every single line. Guys, welcome back. Today, we've talked about tarot in the past, and we've talked about other stuff in the past. Today, other stuff like tarot. I think there's a lot of skeptics. I think there's a lot of people who are like, yeah, tarot, oracle decks, all this kind of woo-woo stuff is woo-woo. It's not effective in the professional.

It's not really effective to solve hard problems, and the quote-unquote, hard problems are to be found in the workplace, and I want to push back, I want to address that, I want to push back on that, and so if folks stay to the end of this episode today, they will get a pressure tested by professional version of, well, when are these quote-unquote, mystical quote-unquote occult things useful? How? What are the hurdles you have to cross, et cetera?

So today, I want to welcome Suzanne Grandchamp, family law practitioner, family law, divorce attorney, family law attorney, who also introduced me to this episode is brought to you by flannelpeoplemediation, visit flannelpeoplemediation.com for conflict management of all sorts from divorce mediation to complex commercial mediation. We bring the science sauce to the immensely difficult tricky, emotionally financial, practical, legal world of how do we solve complex problems before they go on the court, and before they go on the litigation, and before that protracted litigation takes time, money, stress, energy, we offer virtual and select in person, both nationwide and internationally.

Check us out, book a free console, enjoy the rest of the program. Tero, runes, and the like. Suzanne, thanks for being here. Thanks for the warm welcome, happy to be here. So the big question is, why aren't Oracle decks useless, hippie, fodder? Like why? Like why, so yeah, what's your, what's your, what's your how to take? Well, I mean, the bottom line of any issue or so called problem or whatever is one of discernment where you have to go inside yourself. I mean, you know, the we're coming soon, I think, to the end of times where we're looking externally for any sort of answer to issues or problems or whatever, all of our answers are inside of us.

And we're kind of taught to really outsource whatever is our own intuition, our own interknowing. I think, you know, we're taught not even to figure out what that feels like in the body semantically, how to discern it, and then how to move forward with that in a way that keeps us aligned with what we know is right for us.

So what the, what the Tero does or Tero does and or Oracle decks are any other divinatory method. There are many. So you have Tero, you have Oracle decks. You have runes, which are stonecasting and they have meaning, you know, behind the particular runes. And then there's also other things too, like pendulum and whatnot. The I Ching is another form of divination.

But really what it's doing is it's pointing us back to the divine that's in ourselves. And we're going within to find the answers that are right for us and that keep us in alignment for what we know is true for us and what we need. And so the decks are perfect for that. And you know, this really ties in a lot to quantum physics as well, where everything is both a wave and a particle or, you know, sciences figuring out it seems that the brain is no longer the source of consciousness, consciousness is the soup that we're bathed in and that, you know, we're able to that the body is created from that consciousness that the material world is created from that consciousness.

And so we're not separate from that energetic, morphic field. And that's why the Tero or any other divination method can be so uncanny in helping us, you know, figure out what's going on and and how to tap into our own subrenity. That's what this is all about. And, you know, I don't, you know, any sort of professional, somebody said the, you know, the political is personal. I think that was Gloria Steinem.

But really the professional is also personal because what whether you're a litigant going through a divorce or if you're an attorney who's trying to figure out whether this law firm is the right fit for you or even if you're having some difficulty in your own marriage or with a child or whatever, tuning into yourself to try to figure out the answers is where it's at. You know, not looking to what my neighbor did or what worked for my sister-in-law and brother when they went through this or, you know, what Ryan feels is right for our family or whatever, you know, it's really what is going on intuitively. And, you know, that's kind of been whipped out of us by this culture.

But people are turning back in now in this modality, the tarot and oracle dex and whatever can help us discern what's going on with us. It's not magic. It's not woo-woo, we're not, you know, you don't have to be able to sit in the lotus position to be able to pick a card, you know, you or burn incense or wear patchouli or anything like that, you know, I mean, I hope that even my presence in my nicely tailored suits and whatever disavows, you know, that kind of idea.

But, you know, the deck, how it works is that you, so if we shuffle it, you have something physical to touch, which if you move your body and you do something physical is a great start to kind of stepping out of the thought loop that occurs when you're wrestling with something. So even that physical act of shuffling helps ground and center the person.

So that's what I'm doing right now. And then what happens is you just go ahead and I cut them also, it doesn't matter how you do it and you pick a card. Well, there's the card, justice. So justice is major arcana. It's number 11 in this deck and it's, you know, a person, it looks like a king or a queen seated with a sword in the scale of justice and that often relates to legal matters or the law or the balancing of something that is like fairness, you know, the balancing of the scales and it has to do with oftentimes, I mean, it's no surprise I would draw this card in this conversation because what we're talking about is the legal practice and, you know, bringing intuitive esoteric concepts to it, which is very, I'm sure it's very threatening in some ways to the people who believe only in the black letter of the law.

But the nuances and the shades of gray are how it's interpreted, you know. And so, so if you do this card, you know, you might, I mean, it might be indicating that all I'm dealing, this is related to this legal matter I'm involved in. And so if we draw another card, you know, that comes up in the justice card, you know, it could relate to something being worked out fairly for someone. It could be something that's being resolved or a contract that's being resolved.

So the next card I drew was the two of ones. So the two of ones depicts a person who's looking, holding the world in his or her hands. And there are two staves or two ones that have growth on them. And then their overlooking, a person is overlooking some sort of bay with mountains or whatever. And it means assessing the opportunities, looking at what's available. There's growth in this card, there's opportunity, there's opportunity for introspection because the person's looking at the world card holding on to one of the staves. And there's growth there, there's opportunity. And the card is one of perspective because the person who holds the high ground in this card and is looking out over the bay.

So you know, like if we were to read these then in tandem, you have the legal profession or the, you know, the law or whatever and the opportunities, perhaps for growth, perhaps for new opportunities, perhaps for new ideas, you know, the ones are, as a suit, are all about growth, all about opportunity, all about, it's a very active energy, usually associated with fire.

So it's, you know, the opportunities that maybe, you know, are possible within the context of the law or a legal case or whatever. And certainly looking within, whether you're an attorney or a client to, you know, what opportunity may be blossoming, you know, or what, you know, what the opportunities are, is where it's at. I mean, you know, and what, you know, what it feels like because also in this card, you know, there's a lot of water, if you can see it, there's a lot of water around, there's that whole bay. Well, the water has to deal, the water in any kind of esoteric interpretation, but especially in the tarot has to do with emotional, has to do with emotions and the emotional landscape.

So, you know, looking within, figuring out intuitively what's going on with you and what the opportunities may be is exactly what we're talking about today. So no surprise, those cards would come up to me since everything is energetic. And since the, you know, the cards are part of that field as well.

So. But what we do with the cards is we project all of our feelings onto them. That's why there's such a great device because, you know, often lawyers were often stuck in their hands, but sometimes the clients too can't find a feeling or an emotion or an intuitive hit with both hands. And this is, you know, this is helpful for that. It's helpful because so how, so, um, say it, I guess say that one more time.

So you pull the, you pull the justice card and then you pull the, the, who wants and those are. And then, but how does it help you? I get that it helps with neuroplasticity because you're like, you have to think different thoughts than you would normally think to try and interpret what the heck these things are.

Right. All of your normal thoughts. But how does it help? But to me, that's a heady thing, you know, it's a, it's a, it's basically a math problem. It's like, it's actually like a math problem in a different language. Hmm. I see it a little differently. I mean, there's a couple of ways you can do it. I mean, when you get a card, it's, it's, I think it's important. Also to say, when I look at this card, what do I feel? You know, when I look at this card, which I've pulled a lot in my life because I've been a lawyer a long time, you know, what do I, what am I moved by? Usually the scales of justice, sense of fairness, a sense of, you know, doing the right thing of being an integrity. That can be somatic too.

I mean, you can ask yourself, where do I feel this in my body? For me, it's in my solar plexus, you know, down kind of where my willpower is. I'm also attracted to the red and the yellow in this card. Those are two of my favorite colors. One of those colors mean for me, you know, that for me, they mean life. Red is the color of blood. It's the color that is typically associated with family often. And also fire, passion, anger too for some people, but the lifeblood of things. And then yellow is a color that's often associated with contentment, happiness or joy.

So I like the coloring of this card. I also like the scales of justice. I also, you know, really a person who values integrity and alignment and whatever. So you can go into your body and see where this card, you know, where it hits. And so for me, it hits in my solar plexus. And so you can do that as well.

But I think when you project onto this and you tell a story, you know, there's also maybe somewhat heading and telling the story, but there's also feelings that make up that story. You know, feelings are a part of the story. So I think it's, it's good to, you know, feel into that as well.

So you pull, you, you touch the deck and that's tactile and the act of touching the deck is grounding. Yes. Right. You pull a card, which we're saying from the outset that we recognize already that at least one of the mechanisms at play is projection, meaning it's just a, it's essentially like installing a, like a projector into our, into our psyche or brain and saying, okay, what, what's that play? What do you see? And then you see stuff, you pull a card, you see stuff. For me, with the justice card, I would have seen different stuff than you. I would have seen the sword is death, it's violence, it's, it's compulsion and compiling.

The red is blood and bloodshed and this sort of like very archaic way, this very archaic way of being. And so for me, it brings up like a much different feeling set. So I say that and that is basically to go back to your earlier point, that information is in within me. And that's what we're trying to do. Like the teacher, the wisdom, the truth, the perspective from with us, that we might not be able to otherwise access because whatever we're stuck.

Yeah, that's right. And you know, there are, I have books on how to interpret tarot cards and whatever. But ultimately, the most effective thing is to look at the image and tell a story about the image irrespective of whatever the, you know, so-called meaning is behind the card. You know, and your meaning is very different from mine. And you know, when you said that, I went back and looked at the card and I think it's very interesting that if you take a look at the sword, which is over here, the sword is above the scales of justice here. Isn't that an interesting placement of things too? You know, I never had really thought about that.

And then there's a curtain behind this person as well, you know, some sort of whatever, you know, kind of like the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain, you know, what's going on behind the curtain. So it's up to interpretation. And ultimately, however you interpreted is the most important thing, you know, is the most important interpretation for you because you're getting at internally what's going on.

So you might feel conflicted about the practice of law or the law generally or that it, you know, in the tarot, the sword is the suit or the swords are the suit of the intellect. The mind, you know, and the often, you know, being cut off, if you draw a lot of swords in a draw, then you know you're thinking a lot about the issue that there are mental gymnastics or a thought loop that's going on.

And so in this, you know, circumstance, there's a lot of thinking in this card. And the thinking is even higher than the scales of justice here about how it's depicted. So it's just a very interesting interpretation, you know, that you offer. So a question for you. So I'm going to bring this to like, okay, so we have the deck, we have the touch, we have the projection.

Now let's take this into the context of, and so the conflict of the podcast generally is the anatomy of conflict. So it's studying conflict, but I want specifically into let's talk family law. And then two cases, I want to talk for the divorce attorney, who is representing a client in a matter. And I also want to talk about the mediator, who is charged with helping two people who are stuck. And let's say, let's like up the stakes a bit and say that the mediator's situation, and let's start with the mediator, the mediator's situation is, they're a neutral, a neutral wizard on the eve of trial or the eve of trial deadline.

And party A and party B each have outstanding attorneys, super veterans, well versed, emotionally intelligent, who are stuck and can't get their clients forward. So they come to you. And your inclination is to pull a tarot card deck. So pull up pull up Oracle card or some divinatory card doesn't matter.

So you, I want to just talk through what I know so far. You get their consent in advance that this might be something you would be doing. Then you get their consent in the moment, hey guys, I see that your stuck would you be open to pulling an Oracle card from from the stack? They say yes. And then you pull the card and then you remain silent and ask them what they see.

Yeah, I think that's one way to do it, you know, invariably what's going on. And I've been on a divorce attorney for 30 years and I've done litigation for 30 years as a part of that practice. But invariably what's going on there is there's some emotional issue that hasn't been addressed or resolved yet in my experience. That is protracting the case and standing in the way of some sort of settlement and it needs to be addressed. And there are many ways to get at it.

Okay, but generally I don't I haven't experienced it as an effective way of getting at it through the head. All right, it really it's getting into the body. It's getting into what's going on emotionally. And a lot of times I feel this is just my own personal experience. So it's anecdotal is that there's an issue with grieving the loss that they haven't gotten at. And we used to say that fighting is the last form of intimacy.

And so it's very typical that prior to final settlement in a case that there is pushback that you often can either detain a settlement or in derail it entirely. And it has to do with the the impending finality of the circumstance. So I know that from just being in the practice a long long time, but they don't necessarily know that. And it's always not my job to inform them of that.

So you could so you could obtain their consent. And you could say, okay, well, let's go ahead and shuffle the deck and see what comes up. And you know, I'm going to have both of you look at the card and tell me a story. And you know, or you could have them shuffle it too. You know, some people want to do that. Some don't some people who read don't like other people shuffling their cards, but I don't I don't have any issue with that. And you might you know pull up.

So like I just shuffled and we pulled up this guy. So interestingly, it's of the three of wands, which is somewhat similar to the two of wands, but this guy has his back facing us. Okay. And then there are three wands here. So like, you know, interestingly, it would be it would be fun to have them talk about what's going on here because someone isn't paying attention, you know, to them. Someone isn't feeling potentially seen in this circumstance.

Now the traditional interpretation of the three of wands is finality ships coming in because there are ships actually back here on the bay that are coming in. And this person has, you know, a lot of growth around them. And so things are coming to fruition or conclusion. So I could share that because I know what that means, but really I'm more interested in what their interpretation is.

So let's say you have a client and they're like, Oh, well, this guy isn't looking at me. He isn't seeing me. He isn't, you know, he's just focused on whatever's going on out here. You know, well, that could speak volumes. That person, there could be an important either emotional or even a financial issue that this person isn't feel, doesn't feel as being addressed. This person doesn't feel seen, doesn't feel acknowledged. And you know, from your mediation, I mean, sometimes it's as simple as the other person saying, thank you, you know, for being a great parent to our kids and doing this. And I know that in going through this, it hasn't been easy. You didn't want this, you know, or whatever.

So this could be the card of a simple acknowledgement of this person turning around to face the person who pulled the card and acknowledging them. You know, it could be something like that. So let's talk about reasonable expectations for the average case, the action client. So they pull the three of ones.

Yeah. And they look at it. Is it, and I'm talking about like what's reasonable for for reasonable outcome? Is it, if you're the, if you're the mediator in this case, or you're the attorney who suggested it? Yeah. You, what's the word I'm looking for? Like a lower your expectations of an aha moment. Like is this one of those things where on average, people are like, oh my god, this is so apropos because this is exactly how I feel. Or is it the case that it's like a meh in the moment and they sit with it and it builds with them? Does it totally depend? And there is no law of average because I'm trying to get like, okay, I'm going to do this in real time. I'm going to try again and again and again.

Like should I, and I'm excited about it. And I'm trying not to pass my excitement on to the people. Yeah. But is there anything else I should think about in my head as the provider? No, I think you need to be detached from the outcome. That's the biggest thing. You know, is to be detached. If it helps them great, I mean, clearly it helps you, you know, and you're excited about it. And that's great. And if it works for them, it's just another modality to try to help them to figure out what's going on inside. And to bring that, oh, and that usually when that occurs, at least on my experience, you're more likely to get a settlement when all of their needs are being met and addressed.

You know, and like if this person pulls this card and you're like, what does that mean to you? You know, I mean, you could ask a series of questions and you'd have to tap into your own intuition to do that. But you might say to the client and let's say, you know, you asked the client, what does this mean to you? What, you know, what does this card say to you that's standing in the way of settlement? You know, what, what's this? If this card were you, what do you need to turn around and, you know, to accept, you know, what's unfolding here? You know, what's, what have you turned your back on in this relationship?

You know, you have to have a fair amount of, and you do, Ryan, have a fair amount of intuition yourself and just good question asking. You know, what have you turned, you know, what have you turned your back on in the settlement that needs to be acknowledged? What, what do you feel your spouse has turned his or her back on that needs to be acknowledged in the settlement?

So you got to be, you got to follow your own intuition and ask questions, you know, and in a way, it's very much like coaching, you know, you're asking them questions to try to get, you know, to get answers. But I think the three of ones is an interesting card to have pulled like in a session because, you know, it has to do with what's not being acknowledged, you know, with someone whose back is turned towards you.

And, you know, I think that any information you get from them would, if you're like, you're on the precipice of being not able to, I mean, going to trial, being, you know, potentially having a settlement that's derailed, you know, I, I think that's a really great card because you can ask what's not being addressed, what's not being seen, what aren't because they have all the answers inside of them. They do. And they may not be consciously aware of them.

But I think what the tarot does is help them become aware of what is hidden and bring it out to light. So it can be talked about and hopefully resolved in a way that they feel seen and validated. So I'm going to ask you this like for the people in the back. And I think this is a real question. It's also like a real sort of not a fear of mine.

But I guess you could probably say a fear or like it's something in my mind. I want to have answers to yeah, I want to anticipate that this question is going to come and have compelling answers. So if someone were to say to you, so I'm the mediator. You're the attorney. There's another attorney. I say, hey guys, let's do tarot. Here's a disclaimer. Would you like to do it? Totally optional. No pressure. And the other attorney says, this is bullshit. This is a non scientific. I'm not going to subject my client to this. There's no there's no merit to this. And it's and it's a waste of time. It's going to be damaging to our clients.

Yeah. Would you respond to that or you say, okay, like like let's say like as a person on a podcast, how would you respond? And then how would you respond? I guess as as opposing counsel, if you thought that would be really helpful. Well, first of all, I think I respect anybody's, you know, position to deal with or to respond in any in in a way that works for them. I guess as they're probably afraid of it, honestly, and not to in touch with their own emotional life potentially. And, you know, only only feel comfortable with what is black and white. And if so, that's okay. And, and, you know, I, but I am at a stage in life in 56. And I have no more fucks to give. And I, I really, I just don't.

And so I would say, well, are you open to at least learning a little bit about it? You know, it may sound woody you, but it actually really is very interesting. And I've used it a lot in my own life. And with, and some professionally as well to go ahead and solve, problems that appear to be like intractable, but actually have in, you know, some sort of emotional, subconscious, unconscious aspect to them. And the throw has this uncanner, tarot has this uncanny capacity to get at it. Are you open to even learning a little bit about it? You know, would you like to just pull a card yourself and expand your awareness or do you really want to just close that door? And if they say, I'm closing this fucking door.

And then, okay, I'm not going to push them because the clothes mind it. And they're, you know, they're not going to do it. But I might work with the other attorney and say, would you like to go ahead and pull a card or have a client pull a card to see if there's anything intuitively that comes up for them that might be helpful in understanding this situation.

But, but I will say with, I'm encouraged that a lot of attorneys with whom I work, especially younger people are very open and very progressive and very open to different ways of looking and seeing and doing and being not only with respect to the tarot, but just even, you know, different ways of resolving issues.

And so that's encouraging to me. So I feel like the pushback isn't going to be as much as you might think. I think there's much more common knowledge of esoteric subjects, of stuff that was historically woo that has now come into mainstream. I mean, I remember a few years back, I was looking at something from the family law section of the ABA. And they were incorporating meditation sessions into the early morning, you know, pre pre-conference stuff. And I'm like, okay, well, there's movement here. And this is great.

So I think you're going to get far less pushback than what I think. But if you do, I would just push them a little bit to say, you know, do you know about this? You know, can I, are you willing to learn a little bit? You know, they're just the cards that help people get in touch with what's going on because the mechanism here is pretty much projection.

And so it can help them learn what's going on inside. And if we can get that outside and into the room, we have a chance to address that need. And when it's met, we can potentially settle the case. So that's, you know, I would teach them a little bit. But if they're still reluctant, then okay, you know, I'm not going to, you know, be like, you have to do this, you know, or shame them for being always minded.

But I think that issue is going to be far less than issue today. I think you're right. I think I've mentioned it to a couple of people. And it felt very much, it feels very much like closeted. You know, it feels very much like, it feels like kind of like, if you asked someone about THC three years ago, on the record, they would say no off the record, they would say, sure, it kind of feels the same thing with psychedelics. Maybe a little more, like psychedelics are still a little more tricky.

But okay, so let's say that people are listening and they're like, inspired and they're into it, like me. What other tools? And let's say that tarot. Okay, so I've, I've sort of learned recently, I'm conflating tarot and oracle, they're both decks, they're both diminatory decks. Tarot is very specific and has a whole thing, suits and these things, the oracle decks are just any sort of everything else basically. Well, yeah, so I brought some, you know me.

So this happens to be the divine initiation deck oracle by a woman who is named, I want to give her credit. So let me just put on my glasses. I think she calls herself Velkamy. Velkamy art, and her name is Valentina, and I'm going to butcher this name, but it's Maudis, M-A-O-U-D-I-S, and she's the artist, the illustrator, and the graphic designer. And I ordered this deck and I got it, I don't know, maybe a week or two ago. That's really, really good.

So I think in this deck, she has how many cards here. Let me just check quick. So this is not a traditional tarot deck, but she has, I think it's 44 cards. Yeah, 44 cards that have different kinds of, I would call them archetypes, but different aspects to them. And so let's just shuffle them.

So for people who, so tarot is the easiest to just read, you know, kind of what's going on, like in the, in the artwork, and you can just tell a story about the artwork. Oh, these are two people. They're left out. They don't have much money. The guy is a peg leg, you know, it's really whatever. They, you know, they don't, they feel like they're being left out. They don't have finances. They don't have resources or whatever.

So you can get people to tell a story about that. But if they want to, another easy way to do this is to have them draw an Oracle card. And if they don't want to interpret the artwork, you know, this one I drew was a no, you know, and they could read what that mean. I mean, they could be like, oh, it's no. I, you know, I shouldn't do that. Or they can read whatever is the interpretation here. And, and then get further kind of a further kind of, they're almost like journal questions, you know, for introspection.

So let's pull another card from this deck. Okay. So this one is 27 sacred path. So they might look at it and be like, oh, boy, that person looks like they're walking to a new beginning. It looks like it's, you know, like a doorway to a new portal, a new opportunity, a new life, maybe. And then you can say, well, why don't you read the guidebook and just see if anything resonates for you, just see if anything hits.

And so they're like, okay, well, let me turn out page 27 here and see what it says. And then they read and then they say, okay, number 27 sacred path walking our sacred path as a continuous journey of self discovery and exploration. As we learned a trust in the divine and surrender to the unknown, every step we take in faith and love will ultimately lead us back home to ourselves. Although our path may be filled with unexpected twists and turns with an open heart and inner strength, the human spirit prevails through it all.

If you feel as though the road is unclear or you appear to have lost direction or purpose, this oracle comes to you as a reminder that you are always on the right path and you cannot be separated from it for it as a part of your soul blueprint. Much of the spiritual journey is in learning to trust what we are divinely guided and supported is that we are divinely guided and supported even when we are met with roadblock setbacks or delays. When you commit to yourself by honoring the path you have chosen to walk the universe will reward your bravery in the most profound ways. As you step into the support of love creation, be open to new experiences and let the truth of your heart lead the way.

Remember you are always one opportunity away from a brand new life and then if you are a question aster and intuitive, you could say, you know, what is your heart saying you need to do in this situation? Put your hands on your heart and you want to make it somatic. What does your heart need in this moment and then there could be a flush of emotion and I don't want to be divorced, I don't want to break up my, you know, and you could get into the real, the heart of the situation which is this person, you know, feels really sad and bereft that their marriage is ending and that their family is separating and that their children are going to have two homes instead of one home and if there's an honoring, you know, of that grief and room for it to be present, you know, often I feel like when those needs are addressed, then, you know, you're kind of deconstructing whatever the barrier is to the settlement.

So that's or that's um, tarot cards, tarot versus oracle and the sort of like the pamphlets or the sort of explanatory books that accompany the cards. Yes. What other, like a word to talk about, like let's talk about the range of tools, whether they're divinatory, quote unquote, otherwise, that you found helpful, that you're aware of, that you would suggest people who are interested in this kind of thing, check out or put on their list.

Yeah, really it is, you know, I am attracted to, in fact, I don't think you can see it over there, but I probably have 50 decks on a bookshelf over there because I like them and I use them for different things. So I use the tarot every day just to get a bead on issues that are coming up for me and different perspectives and ways in which to look at them.

But I'm drawn to different decks from time to time for, I'm going to grab one that I didn't grab initially, but that's kind of interesting. So my advice is that if you're attracted to this, that you, I mean, I ideally go to a metaphysical shop, if you can, so-called metaphysical shop. And there are a few in the Twin Cities that you can go to and then play around with the decks and use them and find out what you're attracted to and what you keep going back to. You could also do that online, but it's very tactile. It's very somatic. I mean, I like the way a deck feels in my hand.

Now this happens to be the angel number oracle and people are like, well, what does that mean? Well, there's a lot of people who think that numerology carries weight as far as consistency, consistently seeing a repeating number or that numbers themselves have a certain energetic weight as well.

So if I take this deck and let's say I was at a shop or, I mean, I'm trying to think another way to get access to them. I have a lot of decks, you know, for people who potentially would, you know, want to try them, we could make a time for me to bring a few over or whatever. Or I could, you know, we could do that and hold a little open house for people to try them, but social.

Yeah, shuffling because they're so individual and they're so tactile, like I don't particularly like decks with huge cars because I can't handle them with my hands, you know, as effectively. So by show, oh, and I just had one card pop up. So the number 444 popped out and has to do with protection.

So you might be like, oh, 444, what does that mean? And you can look in your here again, your little Oracle deck, a little guide. It's a little guidebook that often comes with an Oracle deck. And then you can go ahead and read and it says, while hard work and an abundance mindset looks so amazing on you, you've really been putting in the effort, laying hard one ground work for amazing growth and abundance. The universe loves someone who vibrates at the frequency of gratitude.

So clap yourself on the back and stick with it. You're on the right path to manifest your desires through hard work and intentionality. Your angels are watching over you, protecting you and your dreams. And so it says upright protection capability and determination, hard work yielding amazing results, reassurance that you are loved and supported, celebrating your wins.

And so you may feel like, how does that relate to this situation? Oh, well, you know, I feel like really it's moving in the right direction. I feel protected in this and I feel kind of guided. You know, I feel the guide already feel that in your body. Well, I kind of feel it my heart, you know, I know kind of what feels what makes it feel open and what kind of closes it. And this, you know, this proposed settlement makes me feel open because of A, B and C or whatever.

So it can be used in a number of different ways. I just did a quick cut and pulled out the car 808 relating to security. So you might, you know, if that came up, you might say, well, before looking at the deck to read about it, what makes what would make you feel secure in the circumstance? You know, what do you need to feel like you're protected and secure moving forward and get them to talk about that? And then where do you feel that in your body? I mean, if you're, if you have some semantic training, getting them to feel it in their body helps them ground it, you know, in them.

Yeah. I'm just, I'm, I'm thinking like in my head as a practice as a leader and as a practitioner. I've done it a couple times recently with the vehicle card deck. And I can't quite tell if it's useful for folks or not because I, they, they've said like, oh, that's interesting, but I don't know if they're performative because they're trying to people please and they're, they're trying to, they're trying to, so I try and just stay neutral and, and somewhat detached.

But as you were reading, as you were pulling these cards, particularly the last deck with the numbers, I started to wonder like, I wonder if this could be like, I'm sort of putting this in my pocket as like, this is a special tool for a special moment in a special crisis to be special, but I wonder if I just said, you know, like, let's say this is minute zero. Welcome to mediation, Suzanne, greetings to the other party. You guys, I just pulled this card for you. And it's, you know, read the card and say, like, you know, let's just start. Like I, I, I guess I'm saying like, I'm thinking aloud and saying, there's no reason, there's no, there's no writer wrong here.

You can do this beginning, middle, and yes, no, maybe when's like, you make the rules. Yeah, that and they don't need to necessarily even do the interpretation. You could pull a card for them or say, you know, before we even get started today, I have an esoteric bend and I pulled two cards for you and they came up as protection and security.

So these are what the cards look like. And what I need to know from each of you, and you may want to take a few minutes just to think about it. And if you want to write about it and then come back to the session in about a minute or two, I'd like your answers. But I need to know, from each of you, what you would consider, you know, what, what's, what, what is most important here to be protected? Number one, and number two, how, what, what is the most important? I mean, what would you feel, what would lead you to feel most secure in this process?

Yeah, great. And then have them just say, I'm going to put you, I'm going to ask you to take a piece of paper and we're going to just go a minute. We're not going to deal too long with this, but I just want to know for each of those two questions, you know, what your answers are. And then you're going to read them in this session. And then I'm going to just take some notes and it's going to be helpful to me to know kind of this information, you know, and if you had pulled to row, you could be like, oh, you know, if I had pulled this card, you know, my initial hit is what's not being acknowledged.

So you could also just say, you know, before this session today, I took a look, I took some quiet time and I pulled this card. And, you know, I think there's something that's not being acknowledged here in this circumstance. And I'd like each of you to take just a minute. We're going to go through this quickly. And I want you to write down what you think might not be being acknowledged here. And then I want you to read your answers to each other and to me. And then I think this will be helpful in moving forward with us. And you got to trust me on this.

But, you know, this stuff seems to get at stuff that's hidden. And that's why I use it. So that's how I might do it too. I like that a lot. That's so good. That's so good. Yeah. So it doesn't need a follow and order or a script. It's just super super the natural conversational. And even if they're not open to it, if you take charge of it and do it kind of like that, where they're not put on the spot, where they have to, you know, it's like an interpreting a roar shock or something. You know what I mean? You know, where they have to do the interpretation themselves. I mean, if someone was pretty open, I would do that with them and just say, what do you see?

But I might do it on a one-on-one basis. You know, what do you see in this? What's going on for you in this? What's activated with this? But otherwise you can take charge of it and pull it up and then guide the conversation. It might be a lot more acceptable that way. So this has been awesome. Super helpful. This is literature. Like I will play this back and listen particularly to the end on how I could phrase stuff and mediation. Sure.

But I think this is really helpful. How is it helpful? Well, again, I think it's helpful to double-click on the specifics here and just to say these things over and over again that they are useful. The take home point for me is that it's a projection tool to help you understand what you already know about you and maybe get you into your body.

Yeah. All three of those things. And remember, especially as lawyers, we're trained to live up here, you know, in that 12-inch block above our heart or 18-inch block. And often what is going on that's precluding settlement or precluding closure or whatever has nothing to do with thoughts. Has everything to do what's going on in the heart with the emotions or in the body or whatnot? And until that's acknowledged, oftentimes, settlement might not be possible.

But if we can get at those things, if we can get at, you know, what is resident within us, but maybe hasn't been brought to consciousness yet, then I feel like we open up a whole new door to, you know, potential, not only potential settlement, but also potential options that would otherwise not be available, you know, to get to bridge the gap between the two people.

So I think and in the attorney as well, you know, as far as making them aware of what's going on inside them and or making them open to different ways of looking at a situation. So to end, to conclude, yeah, can we and can we ask you one last favor before we end? Sure. Yeah. Everyone who's listening, including myself, I'm sure has something today that they're working on that's nagging at them, that's bugging them. Could we do the thing we've been talking about doing? And would you follow your intuition and pull a card for us and people, do you want it?

Yeah. Sure. Absolutely. Let's, let's see if there's anything that I want to, let's just use the original tarot tarot deck. That's just the easiest. I mean, I have a bazillion different ones we could draw from, but we'll just go ahead and do here and see what comes up and, you know, obviously this is best if they interpret it themselves.

So I'll describe the card and then I'll give you what the traditional meaning is and you can chew on it regarding your own situation. Okay. The Queen of Cups. Okay. So the Queen of Cups is just to describe the card. It's a female personage, a personage sitting on a throne with a lot of water behind her, like a whole bay. In fact, she's actually dipping her toes into the water and she's holding what looks like a vessel. It kind of looks like a sample var to me, but she's holding onto this vessel.

She's wearing a crown and she's kind of in this, almost like this phallic shaped, you know, throne chair and she's on the ground, but she's on the shore of like water, literally close enough to touch it with her, with her toes. And the traditional meaning with this card is, you know, the Queen of Cups is that emotional part of us getting in touch with our emotions with what's going on beneath the surface of whatever the mind is telling us, getting in touch with our emotions and also communicating, though.

The Queen of Cups is off in this very warm, I mean, when she's upright, she's a very warm figure, very emotionally aware figure, a very intuitive woman, who is, who really sees the importance of an emotional life, of warmth, of kindness, of generosity, but, you know, especially getting in touch with what's going on on an emotional level and communicating that, because it often drives our behavior, whether we're conscious of it or not. And sometimes, you know, if the card is reversed, then I don't generally read the cards reversed, but also they, I think it's just part of the general meaning of the card however you draw, is, you know, is the emotional life out of balance?

Are you not in touch with the emotional life? Are you not in touch with your emotions? Or conversely, are you being, you know, overly emotional and you need to kind of stop up some of that water and have, you know, a balance between whatever is reason, reason and rational, rational versus what is emotional and somatic?

So, that's the card, you know, that we have here, but it speaks to me of the importance of the emotional life, and are you in touch with your emotions? Can you communicate them? And can you communicate them in a way that's regulated? You know, because so often, for many people, emotions, you know, are tamped down, and then when they come out, they're, you know, explosive, in a way that isn't helpful, and that is, in a way that can be off-putting to other people.

So, how can we communicate our emotions in a way that is authentic and honoring of our experience, but that's also regulated in a way that's safe for the other person? So, that's a lot to chew on for your audience. Yeah, it is, and I just want to say one thing. I want to say, so I had a very specific thing in my mind that I was a very specific person, a very specific problem, a very specific thing, and this card is helpful, very, very helpful, seems perfectly apropos, and perfectly fits the situation. However, it doesn't give me an immediate, it's not like I'm like, oh, okay, now I need to do that thing.

Now I need to send the message, don't send the message. Okay, hold on, let's draw another card, because if she came up as the person, then I wasn't thinking about a person, so I must, you know, here again, there's no, you know, energetically, there's no separation between us. So, you've got two cards that popped out. Is there a sense of loss with regard to the person seeking connection with that person in a sense of loss? You know, the night of cups is, you know, a person who seeks emotional connection, but there's loss and disappointment here with a five of cups.

Yeah, that's spot on. That's spot on. So then the question is, I understand my emotional landscape better. This is, this is like, what it's doing is it's like, it's validating the conundrum and the emotional set. But then the question for people, I think for me and for people in mediation is like, okay, well, what do I do? Feel it, feel it. We run from our feelings in this culture. We don't sit with feelings that are uncomfortable. We don't, I mean, feel it. I mean, if it's like, oh, I have grief. I have loss. There's a loss of connection here. There's a loss. I feel disappointed. I feel for a lot of people going through divorce, it's abandonment. You know, I feel the feelings. Feel it.

You know, and people are like, well, how do I even do that? Well, sit with it is the best thing and or, you know, allow it to come up. And, and, you know, that's, that's the most important thing I think if you're looking at and we're talking about the feeling is to make room to feel it, make room to actually have the emotion come up. And oftentimes it's getting quiet. I can't tell you how many times during meditation I'll have an emotional flush because I've been holding something down, keeping the damper on it. And then it comes up because I'm I'm quieting my mind. And then the emotion has room to move in my body. And it comes up as, you know, it comes up in tears for me.

So that's my suggestion. That's a wrap. That's a perfect. All right. Thanks Ryan.